(no subject)

[bzarcher]

Vatican is investigating Martyrdom for JPII.

On the one hand, I know this is probably being fueled by a need to beatify him as soon as possible to satisfy a lot of the 3rd world nations.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S RIGHT.

He died in bed. He died a tired old man in bed. He did some good things, he did some terrible things, and he survived everything the world could throw at him. I have great respect for what he did in Poland during WWII and the 50s, and he didn't die when shot. Good for him.

Should he be canonized? I don't know. I think that really is a question for history to ponder, and I think we need at least 20-30 years of hindsight before anyone starts calling him St. Karol. I certainly don't think that calling him a martyr's appropriate, because that would imply he gave his life up for the faith by his own free will, or that he died at the hands of the wicked.

Given that he was in a coma when he died, I think the former's sketchy, at best, especially with how tenaciously he fought to cling to life, and while I know we occasionally enjoy a spirited game of "Bash the Ratzinger", I think calling him "The Wicked" and implying he helped to kill JPII might be a bit much.

Gaaah...

Comments

[branwynelf.livejournal.com]

Given that he was in a coma when he died, I think the former's sketchy, at best, especially with how tenaciously he fought to cling to life, and while I know we occasionally enjoy a spirited game of "Bash the Ratzinger", I think calling him "The Wicked" and implying he helped to kill JPII might be a bit much.

Thank you for that ... your phrasing made me laugh despite the despair the subject gives me.

[bzarcher.livejournal.com]

*smiles* And this is me sober. For the full comedy act, I'm going to need a vodka tonic.

[spoonybardol.livejournal.com]

Well, "The Wicked' is marginally better than 'Papaltine' though... :>

[bzarcher.livejournal.com]

Now, now. Palpatine had some redeeming qualities.

[gigerlicious.livejournal.com]

Seriously - what has Ratzinger done that's both so terribly atrocious and unreasonably different from JP2's agenda? It's not that I find it offensive, I just find it irrational.

Furthermore, I'm curious why you who has a Protestant upbringing and self-described Pagan beliefs is so interested in how JP2 is remembered. Is this simply an appeal to proper bureaucracy? Why the 'gahhhhh' over minor changes in procedural doctrine of a religion you don't ascribe to?

[bzarcher.livejournal.com]

Mostly that same agenda - I wasn't a fan of the last 10 years of JP II's papacy either. I think the lack of dealing with modern issues like AIDS and homosexuality with a better outlook has hurt a good bit of the world, and the problem starts in Rome. The Catholic church needs to look at the world and speak to the world as it is, not as they believe it should be.

I also think that Benedict XIV's past actions were at times questionable, and he hasn't really done anything I'd call good so far - his decrees to the Spanish and Italian peoples were particularly depressing.

As to JP2's memory, I think it comes from several standpoints.

1) As a historian by training, I feel this is a poor way to adress the man's legacy and what his role should or should not be.

2) As someone raised Christian, and who still studies dogma occasionally, I think it's a misuse of the term and the position of Martyrdom, and borderline disrespectful to the man himself.

3. The Catholic Church is not just a religion - it is a Nation, both in a literal sense and in the way many parts of the world pay it heed. Their conduct affects the world we live in.

[gigerlicious.livejournal.com]

If one weren't a fan of JP2's agenda, I understand why one wouldn't be a fan of Ben's. However, that doesn't explain to me why so many people are ready to demonize him by comparison to JP2, he's barely had time to warm the mitre up. Both evil, fine, I get it. I don't agree, but I see the perspective. However, it makes no sense to praise one and not the other. Why make the DUR HUR HUR Palpatine joke about Benedict and not JP2? I'm not calling you out on that - this is pure curiosity to see your opinion on the matter.

Now, the historian thing I get, though I find a lot of passion in your rant if you're saying this is just academic angst. But the notion that this misuse is going to send shockwaves through the entire world's geopolitical spectrum is a reach. They suddenly force all Catholics to carry guns? Yeah, I see the worry about who's at the helm. They decide to heap tons of praise on one of their own? Who's life is being tortured were we should be outraged?

[bzarcher.livejournal.com]

The Palpatine jokes come, mostly, because he looks the part. Put pictures of Palpatine next to Benedict in his regalia, and it's disturbingly similar.

They want to canonize JP II, I think that's fine - but I don't think that breaking the rules, especially in a way that seems contrary to the life he lived (which is why so many want him to be sainted in the first place) is appropriate, plus the bending of the "Holy Martyr" status also puts that status into question for those past and future who are awarded it.

[jetfire99.livejournal.com]

Eh what did he say to Spainish and the Italians

[bzarcher.livejournal.com]

He made papal decrees that voting for any sort of gay rights was an immediate and mortal sin.